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The
"Fireball" gives me her unique
insider view of combat sports!
Interview by Dee Williams
Three-time
world champion kickboxer Kim Messer talked to me in July 1999 about her
transition from kickboxing to boxing ... and her advice to anyone who's
deciding which sport(s) to compete in. She described key differences
between the sports and how to prepare for them, explained why she
herself switched to professional boxing, and more ...
Dee:
Some
kickboxers have had
big problems switching to boxing, but you seem to have made this
transition especially well! I'm wondering if you are aware of aspects
of your own style or training that particularly helped you to do this
or if you have any advice for women who have been kickboxing and now
want to box.
Kim: Hmmmm .... First I think it's
important to make a serious point about
the use of the word Kickboxing. When you use that word you should know
exactly what you're talking about. Here's what I mean. There's Modified
Thai, there's True Kickboxing, and then there's Full Contact Karate.
Now if that sounds a bit "nit picky" I'm sorry, but if you don't know
the difference and you don't train for it you can get yourself in
serious trouble ... I mean, like, get hurt ... bad! This has happened a
lot to Americans especially, because they used to think Kickboxing
meant Full Contact Karate. They'd underestimate the power of low kicks
and be ignorant about how to grapple when using knees and they'd just
get butchered by Europeans and Asians. I won't go too deep into the
history there, but I would recommend you look at Mike Miles'
web site because he explains the confusion and gives
documentation of the whole issue better than anybody I've ever seen.
Dee:
Were there any techniques
you had to "unlearn" as a boxer?
Kim:
No, I don't think so. I mean other than deepening my stance and not
holding my guard so high I don't think there was really anything I had
to "unlearn". To transition from Kickboxing to Boxing I just simply
quit kicking! There were times that I'd feel a spot where it was like,
"Oooh...Man I coulda kicked their head off right there!" But I've never
had one accidentally come out or anything. I think the reason some
people have had such a problem making the switch is that they probably
still did kicking drills and kind of went half and half on their
training. That's just my guess but going by the confused looks on some
people's faces I'd bet I'm right. That's why when I took my first
Boxing match which was on two weeks notice, I immediately went to the
Boxing gym and only the Boxing gym. If I'd have
gone half and half I might have been an easy target, with my hands way
up like a Thai Boxer or worse, I might have kicked Regina in the leg
and got disqualified!
Dee: Do you think it's
possible to succeed in more than one sport at the same time? Must you
go all out for one or the other?
Kim:
That's a tough one. I'd say that
really depends on just what you mean by succeed. Do you mean you fight
a few times as an amateur ... you win some you lose some ... or do you
mean go Pro and make a little extra money while you travel or do you
mean you want to be the best in the world and make as much money as
possible? I think it's important to figure out what
you want to be good at and then ask yourself, "How good do I wanna be"?
Do I want to be a World Title holder or do you just want to do it for
the thrill a few times? Because if you want to be the best I think a
saying I heard once makes a lot of sense and that's, "A hunter who
chases two rabbits at once will catch neither".
You see, in Full Contact Karate (PKA style) and Boxing, all the kicks
or
punches are above the belt and the shins have pads on them, so that's
the only "zone" you have to pay attention to. In True Kickboxing and
Modified Thai your entire body (except for the
groin) is in the "zone". The Boxing habits of lateral head movement,
ducking or bobbing, and dropping one had to slip a punch are seriously
dangerous habits for True Kickboxers. So if you're a True Kickboxer
then you don't wanna "dabble" with boxing. If you want to be a True
Kickboxer and the best there is then you don't wanna mess around with
straight Boxing. It's better to stay on the Thai pads. You can get away
with a little Full Contact Karate and Boxing at the same time though
because the rules and the zones are virtually the same. But it's best
to take one sport at a time.
Those four other weapons (low kicks and knees) that you have to look
out for
is why you see some people try to make the transition and come to
Boxing looking "straight up" with their hands held high, stance tall,
and no angle to their shoulders. They've been trained the right way,
but for the wrong sport! European fighters are kinda like that anyway
and then add Muay Thai training to it and you got some really "high
handed habits". One of the worst examples I saw was when Julie Cross fought Lena Åkesson.
Julie's hands were so high! I guess a good way to
describe the differences would be to compare it to dancing. Boxing is
more like Break Dancing, you can lean forward and back or roll under
the belt line, like Pernell Whitaker or Naseem Hamed (if you're good
enough), but Kickboxing is more like "Riverdance" with almost no upper
body play and really high stances.
I can only think of one person who really did two sports at once and
did
well and that was Bo Jackson. I mean, even Michael Jordan figured out
that he could only be the best in one sport at a time. So I guess I'd
have to side more with Mr. Miyagi from Karate Kid, "Stand on left side
of road, OK. Stand on right side of road, OK. Stand in middle, get
squashed like grape". But if you'd like to try both just for the thrill
I'd suggest you have at least one month in between
fights and if you're gonna box, go to a Boxing gym
... if it's a Kickboxing match then go to a Kickboxing gym to train.
The half and half thing is definitely a bad approach for most.
Dee: We saw that Kathy Long
struggled, especially against taller opponents, without her kicks, but
you have handled the switch okay. It seemed to us that you more often
used punches in combinations to set up your kicks, while Kathy used her
kicks as her main weapon. I'm wondering how this looks to you, and what
adjustments you think are more important for a kickboxer when she
starts to box?
You said you noticed that I used
combinations of punches to set up my kicks. That's right. The fighters
I used to admire the most were Dutch ... Rob Kaman, Ramon Dekker, and
Ernesto Hoost. That's how a True Kickboxer sets you up. They use
punches to get you to run into their kicks and use kicks to trap you
between their punches. So instead of looking out for two weapons,
you've gotta watch out for four now. If it's
Modified Thai, then it's six! In Boxing though it's
just two and you don't have anybody whacking at your legs, so there's a
lot more freedom of movement. You can "dance" with your footwork a
little bit. You can also lean back or bend over to get away from a
punch. In True Kickboxing leaning back might get you away from the
first punch but it'll probably put you right at the end of their kick.
Bobbing or bending at the waist might put you under their jab, but in
Modified Thai it's legal to grab you by the back of the neck and come
up with a knee strike, not a good place to be!
So the first thing to fix is your stance. Relax! No one's gonna whack
you
in the leg! And it's okay to bob under a punch now, your not gonna eat
a knee! Now you can "post" on that lead leg more and get more leverage
on your lead hand punches. As a matter of fact, you can bend your legs
more for any punch and get your body weight into them. This is a real non-no
in Kickboxing but here it's a must, no more "arm punches"! Dig in, set
down if you want. Next quit reaching for the ceiling! The ''zone" is
nowhere as big here, you don't need to spread your defense so wide.
It's above the belt now and that's it!
Dee:
Which sport do you prefer
and why?
Kim:
I'd say I like Muay Thai the most because there's so many more weapons
and combinations to use, more room to be creative. You can grab 'em by
the neck, spin 'em, throw 'em up on the ropes, knee 'em, kick 'em,
punch 'em ... there's just more stuff to do. It is more painful though!
What I really love is the fight itself though, and I guess you could
say I have sort of a "mercenary" heart because I like to travel to far
away places, meet new and interesting people and beat 'em up!!
But....I wanna get paid too. So if someone will pay me more to punch
than to kick then there ya go, that's where I'll be!!
Dee: Do you think you'll fight
professionally again as a kickboxer?
Kim:
That's not up to me, that's up to
the promoters of Kickboxing. What I mean is that I've held three World
Titles, I've defended them in four ten-round Title fights on ESPN2.
ESPN2 repeated each fight many times and just about anybody who cares
about seeing Kickboxing fights has seen me. I've been told many times
that our fight (the women's) was the best on the card (even by the
promoters themselves). Now here's the catch ... male fighters who were
on the same card, who fought before me (I was the semi-main event)
would tell me afterwards that they got paid more. This is where it
doesn't add up. One ... I'm a World Champion. Two ... you make me the
semi-main event (next to last). Three ... my fights get televised repeatedly,
the others don't even get aired. And then I get paid less!!?
I mean ... if I'm not worth more money, if I'm not entertaining, if I
don't do as good a job as the others, then why make me the semi-main?
Doesn't later mean better, as in "save the Best for last"? I think the
moment it really sank in was when after an event a lot of the fighters
had gone to a restaurant and were sitting around yakkin' and goofin'
off and telling funny stories, ya know, just relaxing after the tension
was over. Well the promoter was walking from table to table and
chatting with everybody and he stopped by ours and told me what a good
job I'd done and that he hoped to have me on his card again. Then when
someone asked if he was gonna take a little break he said, "oh yeah,
gonna go to Hawaii for a couple of weeks again.
This'll be what? Second or third time this year? I just love
the golf courses there, some of the best in the world!" And he went
through the motion of a golf swing. Now as far as Kickboxing is
concerned that guy was one of, if the not the
biggest promoter in the U.S. with TV connections and everything. So if
he couldn't (or wouldn't) pay me enough for being a good entertainer,
enough so that I wasn't paying to compete, then the
idea of switching to Boxing didn't seem so bad.
This
is the real reason for the women's exodus from Kickboxing to Boxing.
And what you need to understand is that I was asking to be paid more
the minimum I would get in Boxing. So the switch
was easy and the promoters made the decision for me because I just told
them, "Hey, I've got three World Titles, plenty of air time, lots of
people know me, I should get paid enough so that I don't just break
even after time off from work and taxes!". So what I'm saying is if
you're a Kickboxing fan and upset about the recent decline, I'd say the
problem is your ticket money and the fighter's purse money went to a
Hawaiian golf course!
I don't feel like I abandoned kickboxing, I feel like the sport (or its
so-called promoters) abandoned me!
Dee:
On another topic, you
have fought the Japanese stars like Naoko Kumagai, Aya Mitsui, and
Sugar Miyuki. Do you think any of them have a good style for boxing,
and would it be good for the sport if there were more cards (kick or
boxing) with the Japanese fighters?
Kim:
Actually the biggest obstacle there is air fare, it's so
expensive to fly a fighter one way or the other that it's tough to get
any kind of "traffic" started at the lower levels. I mean for a big
name in men's Boxing or Kickboxing, yes. But not for someone who's just
a prospect or up and coming. When I made my pro debut in Kickboxing, I
fought Naoko Kumagai and I didn't make any money. I just wanted to
fight in the Tokyo Dome, which is like ooooohh, a big deal if you're
into Eurasian style kickboxing. So my purse was very small, but it was
good for my confidence because she was such a big name. And although
things are slowly changing there, I've seen three things that would be
a problem. One, the economy, it's not good. Two, except for the K-1
which is a heavyweights only Kickboxing event, the Japanese promoters
are much more likely to bring in someone from Europe (Kickboxing is
much more popular there). And Three, the Japanese are very "structured"
in their approach to fighting so I don't think the women you mentioned
would transition very well from kickboxing to Boxing. But that's just a
guess and only my opinion. I could be wrong.
Dee: You're one of the best
technical fighters in both sports. We'd love to know who you see as
technically the best kickboxers and boxers!
Kim:
In Kickboxing that would be Rob Kaman, Ernesto Hoost and Ramon Dekker
for the men and Lucia Rijker
for the women. And in boxing it would be Johnny Tapia, Floyd
Mayweather, Shane Mosely, Angel Manfredy and somebody who I think is
kind of a "best kept secret" ... Angel Vasquez ... for the men's. And
then Chevelle Hallback
and Lucia Rijker for
the women's.
Many thanks to Kim for sharing her unique
perspective on women's combat sports! A little over a year
later, Kim became the IFBA world Junior Flyweight boxing champion with
a win over Japan's Yumi Takano in Seoul, South
Korea!
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last updated:
Sunday April 10, 2005
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